I feel your frustration. But I’m not ready to say that government and the bible conflict, especially since government is something established by God. What’s interesting about our government is that (at least it is assumed) we have a say in our government. That means that God can use us as instruments to affect change. I think my point is that I don’t agree with the false dichotomy of “Jesus vs. [insert thing]” or “bible vs. [insert thing].” I understand Jesus was ‘apolitical’ in the sense that he did not relate himself with government, and the NT stresses that our allegiance is not with earthly powers but to the true King. But for me that logic doesn’t extend to the point to where I say “surely then the Bible can’t say anything about how society should be run.” I can’t go there, especially in a government that wants my vote. How can I know how to vote except by examining scripture?

“The problem with the loss of Christian values is that they are trying to get back to something that never was. It’s bad history.”

I might dare to disagree with you slightly here, but I don’t claim to have the intelligence or evidence to combat you on the subject. I’m okay with letting it go for now. In a short summary: listen to the old people and don’t throw them out. Examine their reasoning. Examine Scripture. Pray.

Good comment about the socio-economic/economic technicality. I’ll try to make the distinction next time.

Other than outlawing abortion and gay marriage, what ways can the government glorify God? That’s not a loaded question. I just don’t know how biblical governance is possible in the modern world, or what specifically Christians should be fighting for. I can’t figure out how it would work in practice.

I see very little instruction in the New Testament on how government should be run. There are exhortations to be a good citizen, but I can’t think of any instructions on governance itself.

Look at scripture and see God’s design for society.

God’s design for society seems to be perfect harmonious communion between God, man and nature, and I can’t see how anything close to this could be institutionalized on earth. The Kingdom will come, yes, but not on this side.

And as a side note, all the ‘crazy’ conservatives who blab about the country becoming ‘un-Christian’ and worry about ‘Christian values’ being taken away from it, don’t give them a hard time. Please don’t. Because some of them really have a heart for seeing biblical, God-honoring ideals in government.

I agree not to give them a hard time, but I don’t look to them for political guidance. The problem with the loss of Christian values is that they are trying to get back to something that never was. It’s bad history.

This is, I believe a terrible oversight. The people in Jesus’ day lived in a society that didn’t give a crap about what they wanted and persecuted them.

And Jesus was very apolitical…

Not to quibble on a technical note, but we should probably differentiate between economic policy and socio-economic policy. Economic policy has to do with the way government should interact with the market. Both sides have the same goal: maintaining economic stability and increasing growth. Socio-economic policy has to do with specific programs designed to help specific groups. The two generally go together, but not always.

I don’t understand why you decided that it is okay for Christians to institute biblical social justice into the government, but not to institute a biblical mercy for those who aren’t able to provide for themselves.

On second thought, I’ll just leave my disagreements to that for now.

I am conservative. Let’s just say that. I won’t call myself necessarily a ‘Republican’ because I don’t agree with everything that the platform does, but I will call myself a conservative and I’ll tell you why.

Let me address a few ideologies and even some false dichotomies I’ve been observing in our generation’s view on government.
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First: The false dichotomy of a non-”Christianized,” liberal government vs. a hypocritical, judgmental government. Let me explain. This false dichotomy says that you can’t have a government that governs based on Christian principles without having hypocrisy and judging. I would say that government does not have to be a pagan institution. While organized government may be an effect of the fall, that does not mean it is evil in itself or can’t be done right in light of scripture. For the Christian to abandon hope of changing their government for the glory of God to create a society that honors Christ is societal laziness.
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Second: the false dichotomy of complete Godless, anti-God society vs. a society of actual regenerate believers. This false dichotomy says that because people are fallen, we can’t hold them to standards or enforce good, scripturally sound societies because we can’t hold them to scripture’s standards. This is another dichotomy in itself. God has a way he wants society to be done. I encourage you to look up Piper’s sermon on government, the fourth part I believe, where he explains why we should seek to build a society that honor God in its handling of justice and wrongness and righteousness. We should use government to fight abortion to protect the rights of the unborn and stop mass infanticide. And yes, we should use government to prohibit the legal institution of homosexual marriage. Piper argues that these things create a society that does not function the way God intended societies to function. Now, I know one might say “Riley, but what about when Paul says in Hebrews that without faith it is impossible to please God?” Yes, this is true. But, we govern for the society. We govern to make a society that honors God. God will judge nations and God will judge individuals. Proverbs says “Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.”

Humans are fallen, I agree, and scripture tells us so. We are depraved. We are broken. But Paul tells us in Romans something very interesting that seems to deal a tiny blow to hypercalvinistic theology: “or when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which show the work of the law written in their hearts . . .” The Law of God is written on the hearts of all men. The argument of “we cannot expect a nation to be upright and well-constructed unless all its members are regenerate” doesn’t work. God will damn souls, but he will also damn nations. This is true in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, who were so unrighteous as a nation in the eye of the LORD that they were completely wiped off the face of the planet. I know we’re all unrighteous, and I know that we are all desperately low at the foot of the cross, and I know that we can’t expect non-Christians to uphold to Christian standards. But there is a human, societal standard in scripture that we should take very seriously. It is a standard that allows a society to exist in a manner that honors the LORD, even if individual hearts remain unchanged. So while yes, we can’t expect a heathen to act like a Christian, a society that wants to honor the LORD and be the way God intended it to do be would do well to follow scripture’s societal instructions. This doesn’t mean that we ‘legislate the bible’ letter by letter, but that we examine God’s design for a society and for humanity and legislate accordingly. This blesses a nation. Despite a lot of young people my age ragging on old conservatives that want to make the country more God-glorifying and saying that this is pointless and won’t bless a nation, I think that scripture doesn’t lead me to that at all. I firmly believe that.
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I want to pose a few questions here. A lot of liberal Christians say “the way to stop abortions is not to legislate against them, but for the Church to reach out,” or “we should not legislate against homosexual marriage, because we can’t expect a non-Christian to honor righteousness,” or “liberal economics is more biblical because we reach out and help the poor.”

Here’s where I interject my thoughts. I agree that the Church should be a primary tool for social change. But to the liberal Christian that stands by those above comments, I would have to ask: “so you don’t believe in prohibiting the mother from getting an abortion, or from prohibiting the legal institution of homosexual marriage because you don’t want to force a non-Christian to adhere to biblical standards. Well, then why do you force non-Christians to give money to help the poor? How can you expect them to have any other interest but themselves?” This is troubling situation.

That is why government should exist for the God-glorifying betterment of the society and as a sword against injustice. If the argument is that we SHOULD NOT punish a non-Christian for not holding to Christian standards, then likewise we shouldn’t punish the murderer, or the thief, or the terrorist, or the rapist, etc. Conversely, if the argument is that we SHOULD punish a non-Christian for not holding to Christian standards, then we should also punish the adulterer, the liar, the slanderer, the lustful. Both of these arguments are fallacies. A government that honors God is a government that organizes a people to reward justice and punish injustice, in light of scripture, preserving and leading all people to glorify God.

To say that this is not possible because men are fallen throws out a good amount of scripture that leads us to understand how a government and a nation can honor God when its individuals’ hearts may not be changed. Hear me out, I’m not saying that one’s empty works will please God before the judgement seat. I’m not saying that with one’s empty works and still-hard heart they please God. I’m saying that a nation that seeks to lead its people in a way that is truly, biblically for their good is pleasing in the eye of the LORD. Maybe even better worded, however, is the converse. A nation that abandon’s God’s design for a society that is truly, biblically, for their good is displeasing in the eye of the LORD.
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Another thing I want to talk about is political apathy. Another statement from many Christian liberals is that since (1) humans are fallen and can’t be expected to act justly, then (2) we should not legislate to promote biblical justice, and (3) remove ourselves from trying to change government from being more biblically sound.

This is, I believe a terrible oversight. The people in Jesus’ day lived in a society that didn’t give a crap about what they wanted and persecuted them. Their lack of control over the government and its lack of biblical influences I believe were not because the early church didn’t desire to influence it, but because they couldn’t. We live in a society that is primarily ‘Christian’ in ideology not opposed to Christian ideology and even embraces some of it, even if hearts are still unchanged. Even more importantly, we live in a society that can be changed by the people. Why would we pass up the opportunity to move the government toward a more God-glorifying direction? To not do so in light of scripture I believe is terrible apathy.

And as a side note, all the ‘crazy’ conservatives who blab about the country becoming ‘un-Christian’ and worry about ‘Christian values’ being taken away from it, don’t give them a hard time. Please don’t. Because some of them really have a heart for seeing biblical, God-honoring ideals in government. They’re not just crazy old stogies who are legalistic hypocrites. I know some of them are. Maybe even a lot of them are. But don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. We should desire to change our government, and if we’re sick of all the conservatives gabbing about Christian ideals being taken away, maybe we should try to understand where their coming from. The more removed biblical ideas are from the government, the harder it will be for the church to exist in this country. I know persecution would do us some good, I do know that. But if we can actively choose to live in a society that would honor God and have a right place for the Church so that we may spread the Gospel, why would we not desire to have that?
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So, let’s make some objective statements here that try to sum up what I’ve said about my political philosophy.

1. Government can honor God, even while people might not.
2. Christians should understand that they have an ability and responsibility to support legislation and leadership that bring government towards biblical standards for a society.
3. Having biblically-centered standards in a society doesn’t have to mean judgmental legalism.
4. I agree that the Church should be the driving force behind all help for the poor, abortion prevention, and justice, BUT this does not negate the church’s responsibility to allow the government’s God-ordained sword, shield, and hand to accomplish these goals.
5. The answer is not to legislate against all sin, but to legislate in a way that will be best for the society in light of scripture. If at times this means punishing sin, this means punishing sin.
6. While government is here because fallen humans need worldly governance, God has a design for it, and a way he wants it done for the Glory of Him and the good of the people.
7. Political apathy ignores the Church’s responsibility to actively fight against injustice and support justice for the name of Jesus and the Gospel.
8. Old, ornery conservatives are not necessarily blind, stale legalists. They and their parents and their parents parents have seen a nation that was more engaged in the good of the people for the glory of God, and now see a nation whose Christians could care less. Their frustration is often righteous.
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Alright, so now for my beliefs.

Socially:
Look at scripture and see God’s design for society. Abortion is wrong in society because it is murder and destroys the sanctity of life that God has ordained as good. Homosexuality is wrong in society because it destroys the institution of the family that God has created for life and ordained as good. I will most likely be a single-issue voter at times when it comes to abortion. It is an atrocity that many don’t really realize the gravity of. Even more so, we have the ability to change it! That is why I will at times be a single-issue voter. Economic stability, helping the poor, etc., while important issues, will come second to stopping mass murder. I’m pretty narrow-minded on this subject and I think scripture leads us to be.

Economically:
Still trying to work this one out totally. I think the government should be involved helping out the fellow man, but not in the sense of to better the individual, but better the society. I believe bettering the individual to be more of the Church’s responsibility on all accounts, and government really doesn’t function all that well when it tries to benefit the individual. It’s not designed for that. And call me a cold-hearted economic conservative, but I think there’s a place where a government that benefits society has the right to turn its back on an individual who is not being economically wise. The government is not the Church. The government punishes the wrongdoer and rewards the righteous, but is never in scripture seen as ideally the economic helper of the individual. To me, that is always seen as the Church’s job.

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I’ll probably post some more later when I get my thoughts put together more clearly.

While the Bible says a lot about caring for the lowly, it does not specify exactly how this should be done. If you give money to a reputable charity, generally almost all of it will go directly to the cause you’re helping. Some charities operate with zero overhead, meaning that every cent you give gets used. The government has huge overhead. Even taxes and programs specifically designed to help the poor are often filled with so much junk that a lot of it gets wasted. And many programs simply aren’t effective. Johnson’s “War on Poverty” actually did very little to alleviate poverty, and in many cases, perpetuated it.

It doesn’t have to be an either/or thing, but I think if you can, giving to charity or directly to missionaries is generally much more effective.

The Church should support effective and smart social programs, but the conservative opposition to the programs is (generally speaking) that they don’t work, waste too much money, and cause more problems than they solve. That’s not to say that there isn’t genuine greed and apathy out there, because it’s everywhere, but supporting social programs is more complicated than doing what Jesus said or not doing what He said.

As far as economics go, the liberal position is that there should be more regulation, and more public spending for job creation and fiscal stimulus during times of growth to prevent downturns and increase economic stability. The conservative position is that government should stay out of the private economic sphere (within reason), and use taxes and public spending for increasing internal stability and paying off debts.

Both arguments have holes.

I’ll post my own thoughts in the next couple days, and then maybe we’ll continue the discussion on a more practical level.

Also, in case it’s of any interest, I would add to your list of places where we are commanded to care for those less fortunate than us. The Law (especially in Deuteronomy) is full of references to not oppress, but rather take care of, the widow, fatherless, sojourner, and poor. So it’s clear that it’s high on God’s priority list.

Thanks for your input, though. It’s good to also have the more practical, down-to-earth comments in this discussion.